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[threeplusfire]

Some of you will say you know this. But this goes further than just knowing. it's not just about saying "Oh, I know this!". It's about DOING. It's about lifestyle. It's about every day words and actions. It's about changing the world we live in, one word at a time, one action at a time. Over and over and over again, until it sticks.

http://meallanmouse.livejournal.com/1043361.html

Yes. For heaven's sake, live what you talk.

Comments

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women.

So your wounded gender self-image is that important, and being a decent human being is only worthwhile if it garners you compliments?

Wow. I think I've just discovered the warm soft fuzzy center of the universe. And male hate? Ye ghodz, if you felt hatred coming off that piece, I think I'd best refrain from writing anything further. I'd hate to do something so utterly cruel, barbaric and inhumane as further offend your oh-so-delicate, oh-so-all-important sensibilities.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I'm still having a hard time with you equating your delicate offended sensibilities and people being mean to you in the schoolyard and the teachers not understanding your suffering with being raped. And then managing to turn the comments in this thread into a discussion of your special pain, general heroism, and how wonderful you are. But you probably wouldn't be able to hear me over the sound of your being so awesome.

It's a pity, really. Men with your overinflated sense of entitlement and self-importance are why essays like the one tsarina linked to get written. So in a sense you may be right, although not in the way you think; it really is all about you.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

In my jurisdiction, that kick to the crotch would likely constitute sexual assault. And if it really caused you that much trauma, I'd suggest that you retain counsel. With a contingency fee arrangement, you'd only have to cover costs if you lost, and you'd get to parade your suffering before an sympathetic jury and otherwise be the center of attention of a whole lot of people for the entire trial. I'm sure you'd find it very gratifying. You might even win an award for damages.

On the other hand, if you endured the pain and humiliation, eventually got over it, learned from it, and used the healing process to emerge a stronger, better person from the experience, you might not feel the need to flaunt it before strangers in order to gain "recognition".

As for recognition itself, I'd point out to you that it's earned, not something that you deserve merely for not being depravedly indifferent. Do something that makes a sufficient impression on others, and you'll get recognition in proportion to your deed; for example, equating offence at your sense of male pride with being raped? That's certainly earned my recognition, although the qualities I'm recognizing really don't seem to be to your liking.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

delchi It's a great idea, and I also believe in it, however this message has to be sent in a less anti-male wrapper. Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women.


kathrynt When I was eleven, I was assaulted by a group of fifteen-year-olds. .....
You, on the other hand, feel bad because of something you read on the Internet.
You wanna re-think that claim that the latter is just as bad as the former?


Here is where I think some of the disconnect happened. The comments made were not trying to say you didn't know what it was like to be assaulted. A comment was made that expressed disbelief that you were comparing your feelings on reading the post to the harassment or assault of women described in said post, by quoting the relevant line of your comment even.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[nimbrethil.livejournal.com]

Sweetums, NOBODY is twisting anything you said.

"Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women."

Those? Were YOUR words, quoted exactly as you typed them. You equated being made to feel bad for being male because of something you read, with all the abuses women are put through.

Whatever you've said after the fact does NOT change that the quoted portion is the FIRST thing that you said, wherein you DID equate injured male pride with literal abuse, and THAT is what people took issue with. I agree that all the nonsense you've spewed after the fact is YOU doing the twisting in an attempt to divert people's attention form your initial words.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but at this point this conversation is long since over and I refuse to enable you any longer. I have removed all of my comments and consider this thread closed.

Any further communication from you will be considered harassment, and will be treated as such.

[nimbrethil.livejournal.com]

*shrug* It doesn't matter when the conversation took place, your words still made you look like an asshat. Nice of you to remove your comments, though, rather than stand by them. That's the mark of someone who cannot own up to the fact that it's their own words have caused the problem, rather than all the equivocating you've done to try to make it seem like the problem was EVERYBODY else twisting or misinterpreting.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Who are you and why are you trying to stir up a months old thread in my livejournal?

[nimbrethil.livejournal.com]

I was linked to it last night, and given recent events, it seemed to be just as relevant tonight as months ago. I hold to my opinion that fearsclave had it right, and that delchi here has masterfully manipulated EVERYONE in this thread into forgetting that he damned himself with HIS OWN WORDS. There was no misunderstanding, just him backtracking from his own easy-to-comprehend statement, and doing it so well that everyone suddenly jumped to his defense, despite his words being indefensible.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Who linked to this and why?

I don't normally have a problem with strangers visiting this virtual living room in a public post, but this is months old. It's not serving any relevant purpose to argue with Delchi at this point, unless your point was to cause me grief.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

You know what. I'm gonna choose to count the small victory.

Yes. His feelings were hurt- but HE LISTENED. He said his feelings were hurt but he didn't stop reading there, he didn't discount the message because of how it was portrayed- right or wrong.

He said it was just as wrong- he didn't say it was just as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right, but petty theft gets you a year in jail while murder gets you the death penalty (here in Virginia).

If we attack him for him saying how it made him feel, it's not going to help.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

He said it was just as wrong- he didn't say it was just as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right, but petty theft gets you a year in jail while murder gets you the death penalty (here in Virginia).

Wrong vs. bad? I'm a lawyer, and I've rarely come across that level of semanitc hairsplitting in eleven years of practice. It's your call on whether you want to let yourself be manipulated by him though, and I have no quarrel with you.

Suffice to say that IMHO, equating (regardless of term) feeling butthurt because somebody failed to display the lack of fawning respect he felt his maleness is entitled to with, among other things, being sexually abused is just plain jawdropping. And contemptible.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

How do you feel about people who declare that all lawyers are scum, and run about tossing that well known quote about killing all of the lawyers, and then watching the news - seeing scumbag lawyers lying cheating and stealing while you are doing the right thing by yourself and your profession.

Kinda hurts, eh?

Not really, actually. My head may not work the same way yours does, or maybe I'm just not very self-absorbed or prone to wankery. Or I have sufficient self-esteem that I don't crave "recognition" from all and sundry; regardless, it's not all about me.

And as for manipulation, a hypothetical Russian judge would give you a 9.9 on artistic merit for this thread, which can be summarized as follows:

delchi equates his angst and suffering at non-existent "male hatred" to being sexually assaulted or harassed (which really deserves no further comment).

Everybody else: [you know, that's not cool].

delchi: [specialness, personal suffering, see what a wonderful person I am and if only you'd all recognize this...]

Everybody else: [Awww... *pets*]

I will give you this; even if you're actually in denial over it, you're pretty darn good at manipulating people. Not that good, mind you, but really, you've done a pretty good job at figure-skating away from your original repulsive comment. Go back and try to read the thread objectively, from the point of view of somebody who isn't inside your head (assuming that you're able to do so, of course); it'll be an interesting exercise.

But, since your ability to manipulate really isn't enough to distract me from your original comment, let me ask you this: how did you manage to get the impression that the meallanmouse post was "soaked in male hate"? As a man, I read that and acknowledge that it's a sensitive issue, that the OP has a valid point, and that sadly, although I am not one of them, there are guys who need to be sensitized to this issue. And most importantly, that the essay was not about my ego and feelings, but rather the need to speak out against misogny and abuse.

In that context, airing any imaginary slights to one's manhood would be contemptible, especially given the even tone of the post. The insensitivity, self-centeredness, arrogance, and Hindenburgesquely overinflated and flammable senses of privilege and entitlement required to take offence at it is are just plain gobsmacking.

And then there's "Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women".

Let's take your allegations of your own specialness and wonderfulness as read. You've made all sorts of claims about how great a guy you are, they're in the record for all to see, and there is no need to repeat them for my benefit. Answer me this: as a victim of sexual assault yourself, or so you claim, how can you seriously state that the miniscule affront to your sense of self-worth as a man the linked post caused is "just as wrong" as rape, sexual harassment, or spousal violence? How can you possibly take yourself so seriously as to say that?

How could a sensitive, caring, decent individual make such a morally imbecilic statement?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women.

That's from your first comment. The very first comment in the thread. Before I or anybody else showed up and took issue with it. And it goes contra to your statement:

"Just to clear up something else, I have no male pride."

If you don't have any male pride, how could the linked post make you "feel dirty for being male".

Your subsequent raising of your schoolyard beating strikes me as being intended solely to distract your readers and elicit sympathy. It's a classic technique. If you did have the degree of understanding and empathy on the issue at hand that you claim to have, you wouldn't have written that statement, or, if you'd done so inadvertently, you would have realized that what you'd written was spectacularly offensive and retracted or apologized, instead of doing what you did.

Again, rephrased to negate your evasion: how is the miniscule offense to whatever sensibility caused you to first comment "just as wrong" as rape, sexual harassment, or spousal abuse? How is being made to "feel dirty as a male" "just as wrong as" being raped, harassed, or beaten?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't suppose I should have expected anything better from you.

To my mind, and the law, there's a world of difference between expressing a bigoted opinion and actual harassment or abuse. It does not take moral genius to tell that actual abuse is far worse than being a bigot; there's a clear difference between prejudice and violence. And finding imaginary prejudice "just as wrong as" violence against women? It takes a certain special lack of moral perspective to do that.

Have I made myself perfectly clear as to what I think about your original thoughts on the matter, and how I remain unconvinced and unimpressed by your subsequent attempts at self-serving justification?

[moljn.livejournal.com]

Well, good to see you finally stand by your original comment, after being quoted it again and again. It's still a vile opinion, though, especially considering you'd have to squint a heck of a lot to call the original post prejudiced.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you see me as a sell out who is easily manipulated. I was linked here from a post whose purpose was to encourage men and women to share stories of men and women who have stepped up and done something- so we could recognize them for there actions and so that they could demonstrate for the unaware how to do it right and was still in that mindset. I've also noticed that cutting out every dissenting voice shuts down conversations and turns everyone into "yes-persons".

I agree that the original post didn't seem to me to be anti-male; just telling humanity to step up and quit disappointing us.

The major wrongs described against women does not negate his discomfort. But, his discomfort is not the point of this post. I thought the point of this post was to encourage people to "live what they talk"?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't call you a "sell-out". I think that I've made myself abundantly clear as to what I think of delchi, though, and quite frankly, I think that he's done a good job of diverting everybody's attention from his original statement. But you're an adult, and I'm not going to presume to dictate opinions to you.