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[threeplusfire]

Some of you will say you know this. But this goes further than just knowing. it's not just about saying "Oh, I know this!". It's about DOING. It's about lifestyle. It's about every day words and actions. It's about changing the world we live in, one word at a time, one action at a time. Over and over and over again, until it sticks.

http://meallanmouse.livejournal.com/1043361.html

Yes. For heaven's sake, live what you talk.

Comments

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

I don't seen where the original poster is expressing male hate at all, and I've re-read it a couple times carefully since I received your comment. I don't see anything in the post that implies or states men are inherently bad or evil.

What was the quote from Harry Potter - we must make a choice between what is right, and what is easy. "Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." " - Dumbledore

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Positive reinforcement is all well and good - but it sounded to me that the point being made was that doing the right thing wasn't something we should do just so we can get a thank you and a cookie or whatever. That sometimes good deeds do go unacknowledged for whatever reason. Certainly in that moment the person may be too upset to remember to thank someone.

As far as the blinders of privilege - I don't get how that is related to male bashing at all. We all should try harder to notice when our privileges let us get away with things. Whatever that privilege is - be is gender, race, biology, religion, culture.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Are you really going to make me explain how male members of various societies have traditionally held power and privilege over women for the past few thousand years? Really? Are we really going to have to go over persistent, deeply ingrained cultural and social stereotyping that exists to this day regarding men and women? Such as that men are paid more, across the board?

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

Any time you see someone different than you being discriminated against because of that difference? That what's commonly called a privilege.

I see it more as an absence of discrimination than a privilege.

Because the things that 'privilege' afford us, should be expected behavior.

[amyamy.livejournal.com]

I don't see myself as having privilege, or blinders of privilege - and I take issue with anyone who says that all men do. What is this privilege, and how exactly does it work? I'd like to know.

From places too numerous to link to, do your own search and you'll find yet more:
Male Privilege
-If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
-I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.
-If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
-If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.
-My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
-When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
-If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.
-If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.
-I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, etc.
-My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
-As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.
-I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.
-I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)
-Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
-Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.”
-I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

You haven't asked for it, you may not want it, but every day of your life you experience events which are made easier for you because of a genetic chance of fate and millenniums of hisotry. That is what privilege is.

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

Ok, in all seriousness:

Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women.

When I was eleven, I was assaulted by a group of fifteen-year-olds. They told me that since I had such large breasts, I couldn't expect to not have to share. They burned me with cigarettes and cut my shirt off in the pursuit of that "sharing." When I went to the authorities about it, I was asked what I'd done to provoke such behavior, and told that they couldn't help themselves and that I'd need to toughen up. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars in therapy and years of my life trying to integrate that experience healthily.

You, on the other hand, feel bad because of something you read on the Internet.

You wanna re-think that claim that the latter is just as bad as the former?

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Okay, you know you are my friend - but your response to this other person is needlessly cruel with the unique snowflake comment.

I'm not sure I can pinpoint exactly how this all spiraled out of control, but I am really surprised. I don't know where or how you're getting some anti-male sentiment out of this, because I keep reading six ways to Sunday and I'm not seeing it. But I think this needs to pause right now.

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

Sorry, ma'am. Didn't mean to hijack.

*facepalm* Or sir! Didn't mean to make gender assumptions!

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Hahah! But that's kind of hilarious, given my transgendered state. Either is appropriate.

And after all, how can you tell the gender of the swimming pool in the icon? :D

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

My assumption honestly was based on the username. But hell, sometimes boys want to be pretty princesses too, right?

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Indeed. One of my enormous (ridiculous) internal crisis moments as I wrestled with coming out as transgender (ftm) was "Oh god, does this mean I have to give up all my earrings and tiaras? Noooooooooo!" I have since decided that men do not get enough sparkly dangly earrings so I must continue to wear mine.

[mattcaron.livejournal.com]

On the flip side, male fashion does tend to get a better assortment of trousers with useful pockets. Being a bit of a gadget whore, yet not wanting to adopt either the utility belt or photographer's vest, this appeals to me.

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

Sugarplum, I didn't point blame. I took specific issue with a specific sentence, which even you have now repudiated. Abuse and violence is always awful.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

In any other situation, I think it would immediately bring commiseration. But you're directing the conversation away from "these things happen that are bad, more men AND women need to step up to break down this culture" to "what you're saying makes me feel bad about my gender." Which I think the author of the post pretty clearly told you was not the case. You are making this very much about you, and while you are a valid valued human being with tragic experiences, that isn't what was posted.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

I confess then that I do not understand and am at a loss as to how to bridge this disconnect.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

I think everyone in this discussion is in agreement, delchi was just saying that it made him feel guilty.

I was doing reading on Racefail and realized, just because you don't mean to do say or something offensive, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. How am I, not being male, supposed to know how much that offends him? Just because it doesn't offend me, doesn't make it inoffensive. You can't make someone feel one way or another.

The best thing I've found for moving past it is to apologize for the slight, validate their concern (assuming they aren't full of it, which delchi obviously isn't), and try not to do it again.

[rosathome.livejournal.com]

No, but you can change how you feel.

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

Also , comparing how a piece of text makes a person feel vs illegal physical violence is not a fair comparison.

It's your comparison. If you want to back off from it now, that's fine.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that those boys attacked you and that the authorities in your life failed you. Those are not appropriate reactions and there should have been more people standing up for you.

So- let's encourage people to stand up for each other.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

When I went to the authorities about it, I was asked what I'd done to provoke such behavior, and told that they couldn't help themselves and that I'd need to toughen up.

I think I understand - that is almost exactly the response I got from my high school when a guy punched me in the face and tried to rape me in the middle of the courtyard during lunch because he heard I was gay. Obviously, they said, my immoral lifestyle incited this boy to righteous indignation.

I wish the internet allowed me a better way to express some kind of acknowledgment of your feelings and your experience - but I hear you.

[kathrynt.livejournal.com]

It's exactly the same, and for exactly the same reasons. The system of power we have right now thinks that there are cases where violence is appropriate. they're wrong.

[mattcaron.livejournal.com]

The system of power we have right now thinks that there are cases where violence is appropriate. they're wrong.

I would disagree with that. There are some cases where violence is justified, necessary, and appropriate. These folks (http://pinkpistols.org/) have it right.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Though there is a big difference between violence based in aggression, and violence used in self defense - at least to me. But then, the question of violence has always been a difficult one for me. I grew up in Texas with the attendant gun culture and the constant debate over the death penalty.

(And totally off topic, adorable icon with kitty!)

[mattcaron.livejournal.com]

I agree with you completely, but kathrynt seemed to imply that no violence is acceptable, ever.

Re: The kitty - that is Pretty Pirate Princess Two-Eyed Socks McGee. There's a pile of kittehpics here (http://www.mattcaron.net/photos/index.php).

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

The original post is seeped in disappointment and frustration not hate. That guilt it inspires in you? I'd redirect it as anger to those that are committing the crimes. All she's doing is asking you to be a decent human being. And... you know what? She asks the same thing of women.

Worried about a street confrontation? That's what 911 is for. If you can't handle it, call in help.

It's hard for women to tell when a guy is stepping up because he's a decent human being and when he's stepping up, because he wants a reward.

Thank you for the times that you've stepped up. We appreciate it.

But the other men, who've stepped up and then expected us to reward them for it- date them, sleep with them, etc- they've made us wary. Don't blame us, blame them.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

The main generalization is unfortunate and paints all with a bad light. I don't like it any more than you do, but I understand why some people do it.

So often, the men who don't step up, who let harassment and assault or worse happen, or worse, are the perpetrators- they're the men they love- family or friends- they were the ones they trusted.

Telling them not to paint you with that light can sound to them like they should be able to tell who would behave like that. When you say, "not all men are like that", they hear- "You should have known better. You should have been able to tell and protected yourself better."

It's not fair and the generalizations are harsh.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

Also:

You're a clinic escort? Holy sht, that is brave and needed work. I am awed.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women.

So your wounded gender self-image is that important, and being a decent human being is only worthwhile if it garners you compliments?

Wow. I think I've just discovered the warm soft fuzzy center of the universe. And male hate? Ye ghodz, if you felt hatred coming off that piece, I think I'd best refrain from writing anything further. I'd hate to do something so utterly cruel, barbaric and inhumane as further offend your oh-so-delicate, oh-so-all-important sensibilities.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I'm still having a hard time with you equating your delicate offended sensibilities and people being mean to you in the schoolyard and the teachers not understanding your suffering with being raped. And then managing to turn the comments in this thread into a discussion of your special pain, general heroism, and how wonderful you are. But you probably wouldn't be able to hear me over the sound of your being so awesome.

It's a pity, really. Men with your overinflated sense of entitlement and self-importance are why essays like the one tsarina linked to get written. So in a sense you may be right, although not in the way you think; it really is all about you.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

In my jurisdiction, that kick to the crotch would likely constitute sexual assault. And if it really caused you that much trauma, I'd suggest that you retain counsel. With a contingency fee arrangement, you'd only have to cover costs if you lost, and you'd get to parade your suffering before an sympathetic jury and otherwise be the center of attention of a whole lot of people for the entire trial. I'm sure you'd find it very gratifying. You might even win an award for damages.

On the other hand, if you endured the pain and humiliation, eventually got over it, learned from it, and used the healing process to emerge a stronger, better person from the experience, you might not feel the need to flaunt it before strangers in order to gain "recognition".

As for recognition itself, I'd point out to you that it's earned, not something that you deserve merely for not being depravedly indifferent. Do something that makes a sufficient impression on others, and you'll get recognition in proportion to your deed; for example, equating offence at your sense of male pride with being raped? That's certainly earned my recognition, although the qualities I'm recognizing really don't seem to be to your liking.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

delchi It's a great idea, and I also believe in it, however this message has to be sent in a less anti-male wrapper. Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women.


kathrynt When I was eleven, I was assaulted by a group of fifteen-year-olds. .....
You, on the other hand, feel bad because of something you read on the Internet.
You wanna re-think that claim that the latter is just as bad as the former?


Here is where I think some of the disconnect happened. The comments made were not trying to say you didn't know what it was like to be assaulted. A comment was made that expressed disbelief that you were comparing your feelings on reading the post to the harassment or assault of women described in said post, by quoting the relevant line of your comment even.

[nimbrethil.livejournal.com]

Sweetums, NOBODY is twisting anything you said.

"Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women."

Those? Were YOUR words, quoted exactly as you typed them. You equated being made to feel bad for being male because of something you read, with all the abuses women are put through.

Whatever you've said after the fact does NOT change that the quoted portion is the FIRST thing that you said, wherein you DID equate injured male pride with literal abuse, and THAT is what people took issue with. I agree that all the nonsense you've spewed after the fact is YOU doing the twisting in an attempt to divert people's attention form your initial words.

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

You know what. I'm gonna choose to count the small victory.

Yes. His feelings were hurt- but HE LISTENED. He said his feelings were hurt but he didn't stop reading there, he didn't discount the message because of how it was portrayed- right or wrong.

He said it was just as wrong- he didn't say it was just as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right, but petty theft gets you a year in jail while murder gets you the death penalty (here in Virginia).

If we attack him for him saying how it made him feel, it's not going to help.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

He said it was just as wrong- he didn't say it was just as bad. Two wrongs don't make a right, but petty theft gets you a year in jail while murder gets you the death penalty (here in Virginia).

Wrong vs. bad? I'm a lawyer, and I've rarely come across that level of semanitc hairsplitting in eleven years of practice. It's your call on whether you want to let yourself be manipulated by him though, and I have no quarrel with you.

Suffice to say that IMHO, equating (regardless of term) feeling butthurt because somebody failed to display the lack of fawning respect he felt his maleness is entitled to with, among other things, being sexually abused is just plain jawdropping. And contemptible.

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

How do you feel about people who declare that all lawyers are scum, and run about tossing that well known quote about killing all of the lawyers, and then watching the news - seeing scumbag lawyers lying cheating and stealing while you are doing the right thing by yourself and your profession.

Kinda hurts, eh?

Not really, actually. My head may not work the same way yours does, or maybe I'm just not very self-absorbed or prone to wankery. Or I have sufficient self-esteem that I don't crave "recognition" from all and sundry; regardless, it's not all about me.

And as for manipulation, a hypothetical Russian judge would give you a 9.9 on artistic merit for this thread, which can be summarized as follows:

delchi equates his angst and suffering at non-existent "male hatred" to being sexually assaulted or harassed (which really deserves no further comment).

Everybody else: [you know, that's not cool].

delchi: [specialness, personal suffering, see what a wonderful person I am and if only you'd all recognize this...]

Everybody else: [Awww... *pets*]

I will give you this; even if you're actually in denial over it, you're pretty darn good at manipulating people. Not that good, mind you, but really, you've done a pretty good job at figure-skating away from your original repulsive comment. Go back and try to read the thread objectively, from the point of view of somebody who isn't inside your head (assuming that you're able to do so, of course); it'll be an interesting exercise.

But, since your ability to manipulate really isn't enough to distract me from your original comment, let me ask you this: how did you manage to get the impression that the meallanmouse post was "soaked in male hate"? As a man, I read that and acknowledge that it's a sensitive issue, that the OP has a valid point, and that sadly, although I am not one of them, there are guys who need to be sensitized to this issue. And most importantly, that the essay was not about my ego and feelings, but rather the need to speak out against misogny and abuse.

In that context, airing any imaginary slights to one's manhood would be contemptible, especially given the even tone of the post. The insensitivity, self-centeredness, arrogance, and Hindenburgesquely overinflated and flammable senses of privilege and entitlement required to take offence at it is are just plain gobsmacking.

And then there's "Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women".

Let's take your allegations of your own specialness and wonderfulness as read. You've made all sorts of claims about how great a guy you are, they're in the record for all to see, and there is no need to repeat them for my benefit. Answer me this: as a victim of sexual assault yourself, or so you claim, how can you seriously state that the miniscule affront to your sense of self-worth as a man the linked post caused is "just as wrong" as rape, sexual harassment, or spousal violence? How can you possibly take yourself so seriously as to say that?

How could a sensitive, caring, decent individual make such a morally imbecilic statement?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

Seriously, as a male after reading this I feel dirty for being male - and that's just as wrong as the wrongs that are described against women.

That's from your first comment. The very first comment in the thread. Before I or anybody else showed up and took issue with it. And it goes contra to your statement:

"Just to clear up something else, I have no male pride."

If you don't have any male pride, how could the linked post make you "feel dirty for being male".

Your subsequent raising of your schoolyard beating strikes me as being intended solely to distract your readers and elicit sympathy. It's a classic technique. If you did have the degree of understanding and empathy on the issue at hand that you claim to have, you wouldn't have written that statement, or, if you'd done so inadvertently, you would have realized that what you'd written was spectacularly offensive and retracted or apologized, instead of doing what you did.

Again, rephrased to negate your evasion: how is the miniscule offense to whatever sensibility caused you to first comment "just as wrong" as rape, sexual harassment, or spousal abuse? How is being made to "feel dirty as a male" "just as wrong as" being raped, harassed, or beaten?

[lizkayl.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you see me as a sell out who is easily manipulated. I was linked here from a post whose purpose was to encourage men and women to share stories of men and women who have stepped up and done something- so we could recognize them for there actions and so that they could demonstrate for the unaware how to do it right and was still in that mindset. I've also noticed that cutting out every dissenting voice shuts down conversations and turns everyone into "yes-persons".

I agree that the original post didn't seem to me to be anti-male; just telling humanity to step up and quit disappointing us.

The major wrongs described against women does not negate his discomfort. But, his discomfort is not the point of this post. I thought the point of this post was to encourage people to "live what they talk"?

[fearsclave.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't call you a "sell-out". I think that I've made myself abundantly clear as to what I think of delchi, though, and quite frankly, I think that he's done a good job of diverting everybody's attention from his original statement. But you're an adult, and I'm not going to presume to dictate opinions to you.